Credit: B.J. Hollars
“Every time autumn rolls around, this part of me comes back to life.”
Wisconsin native and Eau Claire resident Matthew Mabis returns with the second volume of his maverick ongoing epistolary project, LETTERS TO MATT LaFLEUR (published by Heron Press). Mabis graciously sat down (virtually) with Nickolas Butler for this interview.
Q: I might be your number one fan. I love your LETTERS TO MATT LAFLEUR books; everything about them: the obsessive attention to detail, the sense of humor, that fact that your books can live on my shelves as something more than a press-guide, but rather, as an organic, human glimpse into not only what it means to be to a Packer fan, but also a Wisconsinite. Describe your thought process before you wrote your first letter. Did you know that this would become a weekly "practice"? Could you imagine publishing the letters as a book?
I'm blushing. You're too darn sweet. Lucky to have you in my corner. Before that 2022 season, I had already decided that I wasn't going to coach for the first time in my teaching career. Pretty big deal for me. I had been involved in organized sports as a player, a volunteer, or a coach since I was in preschool. If we're counting backyard touchdowns against imaginary defenders, I've been around the game of football for over 35 years. Every time autumn rolls around, this part of me comes back to life. So, what do I do with all this pent-up football energy? I figured that writing a weekly letter would do two things: 1) It would scratch that X's and O's itch, and 2) It would hold me accountable to do something else I love--writing. I always planned on sending a season's worth of letters, but I never imagined these would end up in a book.
Q: LETTERS TO MATT LAFLEUR is in no way a traditional publication. How did you find your publisher (Elizabeth de Cleyre of heron press)? Can you describe your publishing experience?
A crew of folks was down at the Joynt watching a game, and the conversation floated into my letter-writing. Elizabeth got a kick out of it and followed up with a suggestion to toss the letters and some photos into a collection. It was my idea to pester Coach LaFleur, but it was all Elizabeth's idea to assemble this goofball content into a publication. And she's been an incredible advocate and collaborator throughout the process. We got RT Vrieze on board, and he went full design wizard mode on this puppy. He’s so damn creative and wildly talented. I couldn't be more grateful to be on a team with these HOFers.
Q: Let's talk about your writing process. Do you draft these letters? That is to say, are you editing the letters? Do you ever start over? How much time has elapsed between the game in question and the moment you sit down to write The Frenchman?
You know better than I do that writers can be obsessive creatures. This process unlocked something that made me less neurotic about writing the "perfect" draft. Best to trust the first thought that feels halfway decent and see it through because the clock's ticking. I've got to have the thing in the post before the week gets away from me. And I find it's always helpful to write on the typewriter first. We've all become word-processing machines, so our fingers tend to work as fast--or faster--than our brains. Writing on the typewriter forces the rhythm into a slow groove that gives your head a chance to keep up with your hands. Sentences evolve as you type them, and when you finish them they feel more authentic, so it saves a lot of rewriting. Once I have the first draft done on the typewriter, I retype it digitally. It gives me the chance to rework and reword if needed, and it's an easy way to log a digital copy of the letter. Then it's back to the typewriter for the final copy. When I'm done, the envelop goes through the typewriter. After a game on Sunday, I usually spend Monday dissecting film, box score data, and post-game media. Then I start the writing process on Tuesday and finish by Wednesday or Thursday.
Q: Have you always been a letter-writer? Do you have pen-pals?
My buddy Brendon Hertz is a kindred spirit. I love the way he sees the world, and he has such passion when it comes to expressing that vision through his photography and letter-writing, among other things. He's always been a helluva dedicated pen-pal to those he loves. I followed his lead and got behind the typewriter years ago, and a handful of folks have gotten mail from me over the years. Nothing says, "I miss you," or, "I love you," or, "Why the hell are you running a cover-2 shell look on 2nd & 1 against the Browns?" like writing a letter.
Q: Who is your favorite all-time Packer and why?
C'mon, brother. What the hell kind of question is that? If I had to choose, I would probably say Jerry Kramer. He's an author. I got a copy of Instant Replay when I was a little kid, and I reread his diary entries every season. The guy won five championships and two Super Bowls. He's a HOFer. Plus, he made 29 field goals in his career as an NFL guard. Legend.
Q: Do you have a favorite sports writer? If so, who?
Not a dude known for his sports writing, but I have to go with David Foster Wallace. Shout out to my boy Hertzy again here. He gave me a copy of Both Flesh and Not years ago. Wallace's NYT essay "Roger Federer as Religious Experience" is an all-timer.
Q: I don't really think there's anything shameful about Packer players bundling up against the cold. A Rodge, for example, was often seen in an ill-advised white turtleneck. What's your take on this hot button issue? Long sleeves and thermal underwear? Or, skin & snow, baby?
Who wants to be cold? Have you seen Planet Earth? Even those “Ice Worlds” creatures hate the cold. How do you think those lost baby emperor penguins felt when their eyeballs froze over and they lost track of the huddle? I'll tell ya this much--they didn't look TOUGH. Give me every damn layer I can fit under the pads, please.
Q: When I think about this particular Packers season (2025/2026) I came to the realization that despite his vaunted record (73-39-1 // .650 winning percentage as of this interview) The Flower seems like the most obvious scapegoat should the season go sideways (knock on wood it does not). The Pack isn't going to part ways with Jordan Love. Or Micah Parsons. Or Josh Jacobs. Other than their offensive line, the squad seems fairly healthy. Can you conceive of Next Level Gutey (that's a Paul Allen reference, if you need it) parting ways with LaFleur? Or at the very least, restricting his allowance for waxing, electrolysis, threading, plucking, etc?
With all the pieces now in place, the window is wide open. If we do not make a Super Bowl appearance in the next 3-5 years, it would not shock me to see NLG toss The Flower in the compost bin. I have faith in our coach, but some of the ongoing game management decisions (if you can call them decisions) could be the death of him. He’s a brilliant offensive schemer, but he sure looks dopey at times when it comes to building a drive or counting seconds on the game clock. It feels like he shrinks in the big moments. One Super Bowl ring would change that. I want that for him.
Q: After a coach has experienced the kind of success that LaFleur has, how does he improve? Here I'm thinking about someone like Andy Reid, who coached in the NFL for a long time at a very high level without winning a Super Bowl... Did Reid's coaching improve post Donovan McNabb? Or did he simply have the luck of working with Patrick Mahomes?
Reid’s always been a genius, but he’s gotten to the point of his career that the game is never outside his scope, even in the most chaotic game situations. Football is chaos, and he’s learned to thrive in it. He’s coached his players to do the same, so it’s no surprise that Mahomes has accelerated maturity and confidence on broken plays and off-platform throws. His coach has imparted him with decades worth of football savvy. LaFleur’s a damn good coach, and he will have a long NFL career like Reid has, but he needs to grow out of coordinating and into head coaching if he’s ever going to see the game from 30,000 feet like Big Red. He can still design the offense, maybe even call the plays, but at a certain point he will have to balance those duties with a more expansive view of the game. Or just get lucky enough to find a guy like Spagnuolo to run his defense.
Q: What is your ideal way to enjoy Green Bay, Wisconsin and Lambeau Field. Let's say the Packers are scheduled for the afternoon or evening. What do you eat? Drink? Who do you party with? Where?
When my buddy Trevor Peterson got his season tickets a few years ago after waiting damn near thirty years, he asked me about splitting the tickets each season. No brainer. He and I roll together, and we’ve gotten some fun traditions going. If we get an early fall game, we camp out just north of GB. Over the years, we’ve done a lot of overnights in Wausau to cut the drive in half and save some money on hotels. Hit me up for suggestions on how to get the most out of Wausau. But the tailgate spot is always the same—Uncle Doug’s. Not my uncle, although he became one to me. He’s Vold’s uncle. His house is on Shadow Lane, as in the shadow of Lambeau Field. All the backyard pics in the book are at his place. He was always such a welcoming host, quick with a handshake and a joke. He brought people together on game day at the heart of the action, opening his home for others to experience the unique glory of small town professional football. He’s no longer with us, but he passed that legacy on to his family. I’m honored to be a part of the Packers family tradition at Doug’s. Part of that tradition is Vold’s ma, Jane, preparing a spread that would make Gilbert Brown shed a joyful tear. I gotta have a game day bloody, and a little something on the grill with a pile of kraut gets me in a green and gold state of mind. But I’m a plant based dude, so I have some non-traditional tailgate ingredients. Non-traditional but conventional.
Q: At the beginning of this season, I felt like this team might just be destined for another NFL Championship. The defense was flying around the field with a kind of speed and tenacity I couldn't really recall since Clay Matthews was drafted. But in the past two or three games, watching the Packers win has felt somewhat disappointing. And, at this point in the season, the Lions, Bears, and Vikings are all looking, frankly, competent to good... Tell me some good news, Mabis. Tell me our team is just temporarily mired in an early season malaise that will most certainly lift.
Our team is just temporarily mired in an early season malaise that will most certainly lift. I hope. Glass half full—we’re 3-1-1 and we’re playing some dumb football, so we will be a force when we finally play four quarters of cohesive ball. Glass half empty—our bad habits get more ingrained the longer we play this way. We have the talent, and we have the coaching, but if we don’t clean this mess up and start executing we could be entering a world of pain.